From a previous post on vaccination I received this comment:
"Anyone doubting the value of vaccination should be living with us right at the moment. My (stupid) son and daughter in law did the "homeopathic innoculation" despite many prompts from us to follow the regular vaccination regime. At just 1, my granddaughter has contracted whooping cough and has been hospitalized twice - a week in intensive care in one case and 3 nights the second time around. They are now living at our place (big city, good facilities etc as opposed to their out in the bush hippy place!) and to listen to the poor little poppet whooping away and occasionally going blue in the face is absolutely scary in the extreme. We have hired Oxygen with the paediatrician's support and take it everywhere with us now. The DIL said last night that vaccination looks like a good idea - duh!"
I cannot stress enough how stupid it is not to vaccinate your child - allowing a child to suffer and die from an easily preventable illness is CRIMINAL. Despite all the anti-vaccinationist propaganda the is NO scientific evidence to show any vaccine/autism link.
Saturday, October 4, 2008
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53 comments:
Amen!
Believe what you want.
Our eight year old has NOT been vaccinated, and has NEVER had to be on ANY antibiotics/medications. He goes to the doctor just as any other child would. He's never been hospitalized. He's the perfect picture of a 100% healthy child.
Let's see you post the positives of not vaccinating along with the negatives.. I doubt it~
We now have a 3month old as well, and she will not be vaccinated either.
It's simple. If anything goes around in the schools, the children here who aren't vaccinated are simply removed from the school system until it passes. No big deal.
All you read are the horror stories that blow everything up in smoke, and this little drama you posted just adds to it. I personally think it should be up to each parent as to what they do and don't want to do to their child.
Personally? We turn to homeopathic medications as needed when needed. Our children are happy, healtly, well adjusted, and doing great. Everyone says so. Our son plays baseball and soccer. Our daughter laughs and giggles with her breastfed cloth diaper wearing self.
Criminal? Yeah. Whatever.
PS: We aren't religious nut jobs or hippie fanatics. Wr're just normal people who don't believe in overmedicating (as many docs are prone to do at the first sign of a sniffle) or introducing things into our childrens systems which they don't need.
Even though our children see a natural new age doctor, he himself has stated that he will place children on medications/antibiotics as needed, and will quickly refer someone to a high end specialist if need be.
We aren't against medical treatment for our children. We aren't against medication (if it's REALLY needed), and we aren't against hospitals/specialists when needed either. We will do everything and anything for our children.
However, we just aren't for vaccinating/overmedicating/etc.
If anything goes around in the schools, the children here who aren't vaccinated are simply removed from the school system until it passes.
What happens when the precious little contamination vectors spend more time at home than in school because there are several bugs floating around?
Relying on herd immunity is pretty foolish in this day and age -- and yes, you ARE relying on the majority of parents protecting your little darlings by being RESPONSIBLE and getting their kids vaxed -- given the numbers of kids coming in from foreign countries where deadly childhood diseases are still rampant.
Polio is still around still killing and crippling kids. Ditto diptheria, measles, mumps and a whole host of others.
You may not be a hippie or a religious fundamentalist, but you are an idiot -- a self-righteous one, at that.
I agree with Cassandra, and add that you're incredibly naive if you think the only place your children can be exposed to disease is in school.
The anti-vaxers are all nut jobs.
Thirded. In addition, a lot of those childhood diseases are a lot harder on the adult system; there's a higher death rate and secondary infection rate. Ask any adult who has suffered through the chicken pox.
Selective vaccination is one thing. Neglecting ALL vaccinations is just massively ignorant.
Wah Wah Wah. I never once implied the only way my children could get sick was through the school system. Don't read between the lines.
I live in California. Not all doctors out here are vac pushing, antibiotics throwing, overmedicating, candy ass kissing people. Ours encourages not vaccing. His choice, our choice.
You don't have to like me or my opinions. You don't have to agree with me or my opinions either. I could care less. But let's get one thing straight. I'm not a nut/idiot because I don't agree with you. Just because we have differences of opinions doesn't make me out to be the bad guy. (Name calling should be left where it started... grade school. Not among adults. Sheessshhh. )
What makes a person out to be a bad guy is someone who believes the entire world should fit into one little box, and anyone who doesn't fit into that box should be thrown to the dogs... Talking about closed minded.
I have friends who vac and friends who don't. I'm open enough to accept others for who they are, not for what they believe in. You should be as well.
I'm glad you're posting anonymous, because if I ever saw your child in my PICU because you refused to vaccinate, I'd have to smack the sh** out of you; I hope to hell that you are one of the lucky ones whose kids never fall ill to something completely preventable.
No, people like you are assholes because you don't take in to account all sorts of immunocompromised people like my 14-month old daughter (who was a preemie and still has respiratory issues, or the cancer patients, or the people with HIV) who are therefore susceptible.
All the vaxes in the world can't protect from one hacking, wheezing idiot who is spreading contagion.
Selfish idiots.
Wow. I'd hate for my children to end up in your hospitals/offices. I'm sure you guys love putting children (infants even) on antibiotics and psycho meds for every little problem and every little sign of acting out.
There are THOUSANDS of children here in the US that aren't vacced. How many problems do you hear resulting from them not being? Very few. The problem is the media (and people like you) blow it up so much that the drama adds to the problem. It's not us not vaccing that's the problem. It's people making mountains out of the molehills.
Despite not being vacced, my eight year old has had the chicken pox. He bounced right back just like other children do. Not having had the vac didn't kill him. Gasp gasp the horror! A child survived a normal childhood problem without being vacced for it! The terror! Shut this up before it gets out and other parents choose not to do it as well.
Why introduce medications/chemicals into the bodies of children who don't need it? Why prescribe antibiotics for every little sniffle and sneeze? Why place normal children who are a little over hyper and outgoing on meds to calm them down? In all honesty, what good does it serve?
Oh that's right. Doctors pockets. Then let's remind you folks who are eager to prescribe and inject about MRSA... Why? Because overmedicating caused this. Or did you guys accidentally forget about this when you went off on your tangent.
I bet you'd flip out to know my son was breastfed until he was two. My daughter is breastfed. I do attachment parenting and charter schools. We see holistic chiropracters *yes both children, myself, and my husband* and new age doctors. Wow. We must be some kind of freaks right?
Oh. And both my children are adopted. Domestically as newborns. Guess that makes me even more of a freak and idiot right?
Uhhmmmmm, Hi... I’m new to this blog, but I have a question that I've been wanting to ask folks who are not adamant anti-vax'ers... How do all the pro-vax peeps feel about the varicella vax?
See, the way I'm looking at it, is unlike MOST of the vaccinations given today, Chicken pox is less deadly, less dangerous, and the vaccination is less successful (even though you get the vax, you still have a fair chance at getting the virus)...
I got chicken pox (ok, I got Chicken pox twice -and- shingles!!!), it was uncomfortable, but deal-able... Unlike, say, polio, which my great uncle got, and his lower vertebrae are now fused together -ouch! - but he's alive and therefore considers himself lucky.
I am also weary of the MMR vax, simply because of the reaction *I* had as a baby (wheezing, asthma that appeared within days of getting the vax and lasted until I was three, a rash that looked like a combination of the three, swollen glands, etc, etc... ended up in the hospital from it) - there's a page for the baby book! So if we decide to do them, it will probably be each one separately.
So while I agree that many vaxes are LIFESAVING, I feel that the chicken pox vax is almost lazy... Take care of your kid, look for issues that can occur, and if you see signs of them go to the doctor again. Getting the illness protects for a lifetime from getting it again (well, unless it pops back up as shingles *grumbling*), no need for boosters drastically, drastically less) risk of accidentally getting it as an adult and having the common, serious complications that come with it then.
Now, I'm all for adults who have -by some miracle- NOT gotten the virus to get vax'd, it would be dangerous for them to get it. But infants, who are at the second greatest risk by getting it, are too young for the vax. Therefore, by the time they are old enough to get vax'd they're at a decreased risk of life-threatening complications, until the reach maturity.
So how do _you_ feel about this vax?
And the flu epidemic of 1918 was a molehill. Yup.
Personally, I believe kids should be allowed to get the chicken pox. That one doesn't bother me. I had all the typical childhood illnesses with the exception of the mumps. Still haven't had them, and have been vaccinated, tested, revaccinated.
Don't assume that all of us believe in putting kids on antibiotics at the first sign of anything either. Some of us work in places that routinely do...unfortunately, that's called earning a paycheck; not everyone can afford to make a stand to uphold their personal moral convictions.
But, to put your kids at risk for some things that can be prevented? It's just nuts not to do so. It's no different than letting your kid play in the cleaning supplies under the kitchen sink without a locking mechanism.
My spouse had polio when he was five, in the days prior to polio vaccines. Only the actions of an old country doctor, who gave him massive amounts of penicillin kept him from a severe case and life in an iron lung. As it was, he was isolated in a polio ward, alone, for several months - as a five year old. Do you want to risk your children for something you find morally objectionable?
Oh...and btw...I despise getting flu shots. I think they're a crock. But, I work with NICU babies and I'm not willing to take the risk that *I* might bring something in to *them*. So, I get my shot each year...just in case.
You're using 1918 as a reference point for GETTING vacs? Let's go for something... Oh... I don't know... that took place LESS than 90 years ago why don't we. Cmon now. That's one hell of a stretch.
Show me something HUGE that has happened in the past 25 years that could have been prevented, here in the US by getting ALL the children in this country vacc'ed and we MIGHT be able to talk. Seriously. I'm all about debating.
My doctor can't show me one thing that makes me want to run out and have my children injected with tons of medication/chemicals. I know I pissed off the hospital that my daughter was born at when I refused to sign papers for her to get the HepB vacc within minutes/hours after her birth. She was not even 24hrs old and they were ready to shove needles in her with chemicals. Um. No. She got what was required to be given to her by law. Nothing more.
Our birthmom heard a loud long tangent by one of the nurses at the hospital because we don't vac. She was told that she may want to reconsider her choice because we were not vacc'ing the child, and didn't she think that was dangerous, and whatever would she do if her baby died because we refused to allow them to vacc her and to give her that first HepB shot.
Jesus H. Christ people... We were treated like 2nd class citizens by this one nurse. However, the rest of the staff nodded and said they respected our decisions. We were so glad to get our daughter and birthmom out of that hospital when the time came!
hmmm, interesting. I am totally not a fan of overmedicating kids with things that aren't needed. Abd I do respect and understand the right to choose. Medical therapy come with the rigth/responsibility to choose. But surely knowing that a vaccine all but obliterated several life threatening diseases like polio, would make me think twice about not getting it for my kids. Pretty simple link--no vaccine-lots of polio, after vaccine--not much polio. While everyone has the right to choose I think that a future outbreak (if it occurs) among non-vaccinated children would prove it to be a fairly irresponsible choice.
"Show me something HUGE that has happened in the past 25 years that could have been prevented, here in the US by getting ALL the children in this country vacc'ed and we MIGHT be able to talk. Seriously. I'm all about debating."
Seriously, have you ever heard of the safety of the herd? The reason we haven't had big epidemics of certain diseases is because the vast majority of people do/did receive vaccines, reducing the likelihood of a significant outbreak in the general population.
Now that more and more people are refusing vaccination (because of a false sense of security), we're beginning to see the return of nearly eradicated medical conditions such as measles and pertussis. That's thanks to people like you, btw.
This is a serious issue for adults or children who are immunocompromised, and who relied on herd immunity for protection because they couldn't receive certain vaccines for legitimate medical reasons. Their risk of acquiring serious, even fatal, diseases has increased in recent years thanks to the selfishness of ignorant anti-vaxers.
Don't bother -- talking to anti-vaxers is like talking to a brick wall.
Every once in a while, the full commode of Mothering-dot-commune spills over in to the real world.
Hey crankyprof... Mighty close minded you are for a doctor. I'd hate to be your patient and you think nothing wrong and I end up dying because you have to be right all the time... or worse yet, you diagnose me with something I don't have and it end up killing me too.
Anonymous anti vax... is the eradication of small pox big enough for you?
drshroom-
SmallPox is gone and no longer seems enough of a threat here in the US (with no international travel plans in our future) for consideration.
Thank you for at least asking instead of hating and name calling immediatley.
We consulted with several different doctors before choosing one, 3 of the 5 we consulted with are not vacc/antibiotic/psycho med pushing docs. Two were. We obvoiusly chose the doctor that was the best match for our family.
If not getting vacs was so wrong, wouldn't thousands of parents be in jail for child abuse? I mean obviously there's something there that makes it safe enough to be legal enough for me to refuse,
I'm not a medical doctor, anon, I'm a college professor...but thanks for playing along.
I am the mother of an immunocompromised infant whose health is affected by people who choose not to vaccinate. If you want to compare CV's -- I breastfed all of my kids for 2+ years, we practice attachment parenting, send our kids to private (Catholic) schools...blah, blah, blah sanctimommy competitive parenting dickwaving.
It still boils down to the fact that your choices do not just affect YOUR children.
(I'll continue to stand by my characterization of mothering dot commune as a full cesspit slopping over.)
(Not the same Anonymous...just can't remember my blogger password!)
If you were only going to pick a doctor that agreed with your ethics, then why even pick a doctor at all?
Isn't that like getting a second opinion until you hear what you want to here? Like this...
Patient: I have cancer.
Doctor 1: Tests show you have no cancer.
Doctor 2: Tests show you have no cancer:
Doctor 3: Tests show you have no cancer.
Doctor 4: Test show you have no cancer.
Doctor 5: Tests show you might have cancer.
So...four out of five doctors are wrong. You're going to pick doctor 5 simply because he agrees with what you think you have. Ever stop to think that doctor 5 is just agreeing with you to get your money?
A new anonymous noter here (RN/NP): What's interesting in this debate is that nobody has mentioned any long term, peer reviewed scientific trials as evidence for their decisions. To base your decisions on opinion, whether from a doctor or a Mothering.org site or on thinking that the 21st century is one of less contagions than the 20th century having nothing to do with vaccinations is not just dangerous for at risk populations, it is also the very definition of ignorant. You may not want chemicals in your children, and that is respectable. But to ignore the fact that they are at higher risk for life threatening complications (stated in morbidity and mortality ratios in clinical trials, yes you can find these peer reviewed, published journals) is just ignorant. Instead, minimize the chemical exposures in the home environment (clothing, cleaning materials, laundry soap etc) and realize that vaccination isn't a cult, it is a reason why we no longer suffer from Tuberculosis, polio, measles etc. in the western world. When you travel to less developed nations what do you see? Less vaccination due to lack of resources, and higher child and infant mortality and morbidity rates from so-called 'normal' childhood illnesses. You only need to see one child who has spinal nerve damage from chicken pox to realize that these complications are not fear mongering on the part of pro-vaxers to convert non-vaxers. They are scientific realities that are documented, not opinion or school of thought ideals. Not to mention the fact that Tuberculosis used to be thought 'eraticated' prior to multidrug resistance. What is the most common reason for multidrug resistance in community populations? People not taking their drugs as prescribed. 2 pills four times a day becomes 2 pills at three meals a day becomes I skipped a dose because I slept in becomes I stopped a day early because I felt okay. Overprescribing has not been proven to be as much the source of this issue in the last 15 years as doctors have read the science behind multidrug resistance and follow the guidelines of such manuals as "Bugs & Drugs, 2006" (look it up, I dare you to defy that it discourages incorrect prescribing)- lack of patient compliance and staying the course of treatment has, and will continue to put everyone at risk for superbugs. Your idea that doctors overmedicate is seriously a 1980s paradigm.
Hey, now, not ALL people on mothering are certifiably insane!!! I'm on there ("I" being the *new* anon, asking how you feel about the varicella, but agreeing with most of the other vaccines. :p)... Some of them are actually a bit... normal... you just have to look! (think Nicu/GLBT/and SN parents... lol) there are just _sections_ of mothering that are... well... nutsoid.
t
(new anon noter RN/NP says):Haha, see, I am an anonymous reader of mothering.org- so can safely say that like you, there are things that are great on that website/magazine and things that need some re-evaluation. I think to just read one side of the argument (whether just science or just humanities) neglects perspectives that need to be taken into account. However, being taken into account means they need to be weighed against other sources of information to get to the best possible/most likely conclusion about the issue you are debating. Hopefully that clears up that I am not anti mothering.org!
I am a 25-year-old healthy female and two months ago I caught the whooping cough, which is preventable by vaccine (I had the vaccine as a child, but it wore off). Even though I'm healthy, I still came down with complications, extremely painful pleurisy that left me bedridden for a week to name one. Two months later, I'm still recovering. I would hate to see what this preventable illness would do to an infant, an elderly person, or someone with a compromised immune system. I doubt they would be so "lucky" as me.
"(new anon noter RN/NP says):Haha, see, I am an anonymous reader of mothering.org- so can safely say that like you, there are things that are great on that website/magazine and things that need some re-evaluation. I think to just read one side of the argument (whether just science or just humanities) neglects perspectives that need to be taken into account. However, being taken into account means they need to be weighed against other sources of information to get to the best possible/most likely conclusion about the issue you are debating. Hopefully that clears up that I am not anti mothering.org!"
LOL, forget anonymous there - I LOVE to say the opposite of what they think (with valid multiple sources, of course!) and then just let 'em go to town!!
I wish there was a place that wasn't completely "mainstream" but also not so, well, certifiable at times...
Speaking of pertusis, UGH, had it as a teen, SUUUUCKED, will do everything possible to avoid my kids getting THAT, cruel and unusual is what whooping cough is - oh, and MISERABLE!! And I was lucky, (plus, my mom was, well, dumb) didn't miss a day of school or end up in the hospital "you don't need to breath, you need to get your *butt* in the car NOW!!!"
-T
Why do I have feeling that anonymous is someone we all know who lives in bloggerville but chooses to be anonymous instead of using their blog name? Hmmmmmm....
(RN/NP says): Re: girlvet
I think there are a few anonymous noters! I don't have a blog, I just read them... but if you look back through the comments I think there is more than one anonymous noter!
Re:"LOL, forget anonymous there - I LOVE to say the opposite of what they think (with valid multiple sources, of course!) and then just let 'em go to town!!
I wish there was a place that wasn't completely "mainstream" but also not so, well, certifiable at times..."
I'm not sure what your comment means/is directed towards? Don't be an anonymous reader of mothering.org?? Your message is unclear.
Excellent debate, it gave quite a few things for me to think about.
rn/np, no no no, I was just laughing because you said you were an anon reader there, I was just saying that there are days when I get my giggles from sending the crazies on MDC into a tizzy.
I also was saying I wish that there were a community that fell somehwere bectween MDC and say... CIO/baby scheduling.
-t
You pull your kids out of school when stuff starts going around to protect them from getting sick? Don't you realize half this crap is contagious long before it's symptomatic?
I suggest Anon. (anti-vaccine) take herself to the nearest children's hospital to see what happens when "healthy" kids who don't get vaccinated get sick from completely preventable illnesses. Just stand in the hallways and listen to them scream in pain and fear when the phlebotomist has to come in for the 3rd time that day to do a blood draw. Listen to their frustration at having to do breathing treatments because their little lungs can't properly take in enough air. Watch what happens when they get so sick they stop eating and need a feeding tube stuck down their nose, or better yet, a peg tube that gets put in directly into their abdomen for liquid feeds because they are so sick and weak.
THAT is what happens when your precious healthy babies get sick with a major illness that would have been totally preventable with a little vaccine that would have caused minimal side effects.
Dramatic? Yes.
Reality? Absolutely the hell YES.
And, I'm the lab tech/phlebotomist who has to come in and do those blood draws all day long, sometimes q2, sometimes more, then listen to the results and watch those levels change and see kids dying before anyone else knows it. It's bad enough that those things happen, but when they happen and could have been prevented...*shakes head sadly*
Dramatic...yes.
Reality? Unfortunately so.
*newer anon*
I guess we can all have different opinions- in many areas of our lives.
I work with a doctor who will chew you out for 20 minutes if you don't get the flu shot.
I have another MD I work with who does not vaccinate her family, but does encourage patients to do so.
The RN/NP who cited the research about the over prescribing vs pt compliance, while I have read that, too, I work with plenty of MD's who write RX's for patients, come to us and say the patient doesn't really need it, but the mother, pt, other family member insisted, etc- and they fear getting called to the carpet by the patient complaint department after a agitated, tired mom of a sick kiddo called to voice her anger. Never mind that the child has a VIRUS- abx won't help that. What it boils down to no matter what side of the fence you are on, is poor public/patient education. Half of what you hear is pad for by some company or group who has monetary gains to be made- on both sides! Our country is so infused with this type of behavior, it is no wonder that an average educated citizen doesn't know what to choose.
I allowed my DD to have most of the vaccines. I did request that the new combo vax be split up, as for some reason, I did not like them all being in one syringe. Just didn't go over well with me. So- bab mommie award, she has to get an extra shot or 2. I also have not given her the Hep B vax- which she may or may not get at later date. She is not in daycare, and we don't live in a high risk environment. An interesting note- I have had the Hep b vax series twice because I didn't tier out the first time. I still don't titer out- my body did not obtain immunity from the vaccine.
I would like to see more titering being done. We do it for dogs. I am involved in dog shows, etc, and it is common practice in the breeding world not to gve puppies all the vaccines on the schedule that the vets recommend. Often times it is breed specific, like they are known to have difficulties with too many vax, too close together. But- majority still receive the vax- just spaced out longer. And, many friends of mine titer for boosters as well. One has been able to go for 5 years between rabies boosters. Some state laws do not accept titers in lieu of vaccine q 3 years or whatever0 but it is good to look into. The downside is that titering, whether on human or canine is $$$.
I also do NOT get the flu shot. I am very scared that one day it will be mandatory or I could lose my job...maybe then. But- I would recommend my grandparents get it, etc. I just am choosing for me. I have had all others, including rabies due to being bitten as teenager.
I just wonder all you people posting about what an idiot I am, how horrible of a mother I am, etc... What do you do when a patient comes in and the parent refuses to vac? Are you calling in child protective services because they are a danger to their child? Do you make them out to be a terrorist because their child is a danger to others? I mean seriously...
What it boils down to is the choice of each parent, and whether you folks like it or not, this is America, and we have the right to choose. My CHOICE is to not vac my children. That doesn't make me out to be a horrible parent. That doesn't make it out to be an idiot. That simply makes me an American who has the right to make an educated choice that benefits my family the most, as I have done.
Hospitals with screaming children because they aren't vacced? It doesn't happen every day. There isn't a world wide epidemic because children aren't vacced right now. The overexaggerating bullshit is getting old. Seriously.
There is absolutely no reason for medical professionals to try and force a parent or scare a parent into vaccing. Coersion may work well with some people, but it doesn't work for me.
Get over it. Not everyone in the world is going to do what YOU want. YOU aren't going to do what everyone else in the world wants you to do. Name calling because someone doesn't agree with you? I'd hate to be your friends or involved with you on a personal or professional level. The self righteous additudes that most of you responders seem to have is pretty sad and pathetic.
Oh and no. I don't have a blog. I don't have time for one really. I respond to posts when I have time and when they are interesting enough to respond to.
anonymous said:
The self righteous additudes that most of you responders seem to have is pretty sad and pathetic.
That's pretty much the pot calling the kettle black, now, isn't it?
Ah, sad little anon! Have you lived into your 5th decade? I doubt it. Have you watched the return of whooping cough? We thought we had it erradicated, but nonvac parents must know better...
Have you done any work with the March of Dimes? They are an older organization thats' mission was to "stamp out birth defects." Unfortunately, Measles are on the rise. Measles used to be a big cause of first trimester birth defects and miscarriage; shall we sit back and watch it make a grand comeback?
So you see, these folks who are name calling are just displaying their passion for medicine - good medicine. Preventive care is SO much better than minimizing adverse effects. Us old folk even have a saying that you might have heard: "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." You do not live in a bubble and your actions do affect others!
And I am very interested in reading about your ATB pushing docs. Come to the Midwest where you have to look hard and long to find a doc who will throw ATB at your 'sniffling' child. We are already up to our asses in MRSA (superbugs that have limited response to ATB) All of us over here have a realistic viewpoint. ATB don't kill viruses and we aren't going to treat your sniffles...
(RN/NP) says: I don't remember name calling, or insisting that people were wrong for making choices. Health care is about educating people so they make safe choices. You wouldn't do a randomized control trial to see how smoking affects children for the first 10 years of their lives- it would be unethical because of the volumes of research that have been published to indicate the adverse affects. This also isn't to say that some chemical additives haven't been altered over time to be safer in vaccines, and further discoveries and alterations may may future vaccines and the preservatives they require even more safe/better. The problem is here, that the recommendations of interdiscplinary research teams are based on science, replicatable results in controlled settings (where possible) to ensure validity and reliability of results. Sure you can think you're making an educated choice if you've read a few articles that support your view, but have you really examined much of the sources that are out there? Having read much literature from both vaxers and non-vaxers, science and humanities on this topic I can honestly say I am no expert myself, but that I do see where the literature for both sides directs us- and woe is the parent in the rich, educated western nation who refuses vaccination based on the 'right to make and "educated" choice'. Sure your child may benefit from the herd immunity and your poor choice won't result in a poor outcome. Were you to have the same child in a third world country where these preventative so-called 'normal' childhood illnesses can claim (from some sources) up to 1 child a minute... would you still sing the same song?
How would it be if instead of knowing someone who has or hasn't had the choice to vaccinate, you and your friends knew mothers and fathers who had lost childREN to these diseases and for what- so you can say you had the right to make an educated choice as well as to choose what the definition of educated choice means?
In retort, your comments do not really support your 'educated' choice in that they are emotionally driven, and do not follow basic tenets of medicine/science. When you can come up with an argument that holds its weight without rhetoric or anti-vax fear mongering, then I will share a seat with you at this debate.
(RN/NP) says: I wonder, is it also important to note, that on both sides of the argument are people who are passionate for preventing chidren from being harmed, either from preventable illness or from vaccine components. I would suggest, do not forget that power plays into this mix. But, also do not forget that when these opinions come from any intention other than altruism for the well being of a child then that is a problem within THAT individual, not a weakness of the either side of the argument up for debate. Just because a medical professional believes in vaccination or a parent believes in abstaining does not make that person any less concerned about keeping healthy children healthy. To suggest that medicine acts as a conspiracy to coerce parents into dangerous acts just seems so... foreign to me. Perhaps it depends on where you live, and the values of the culture you are a part of. *Happily Canadian*
Another anonymous here...
I've heard of cases where men/women have sued their sexual partners for giving them HIV/AIDs/other STD, when said partner KNEW they had the disease but didn't disclose that fact before sex.
Could the same happen in cases of "your unvaccinated child got my immunodeficient child sick"?
Difference is, HIV/AIDS and sleeping around without informing the partners you're sleeping with is illegal.
Not vaccing my children isn't. Get over it.
Not vaccinating your child may no be illegal but it is certainly a violation of the unwritten social contract of anyone's "global village".
Unless it's in black and white required by LAW and in the statutes, I could care less about any "unwritten social contracts".
So sure, go ahead and sue the unvacced kid when your kid gets sick. Unfortunatley due to the fact that it's perfectly LEGAL for me (and thousands of others who choose not to) to choose against vaccing my/our children, most lawyers wouldn't touch it without thousands in advance on the table, and then only so they could make a quick couple grand. You'd loose, hands down.
When will people learn to stop judging others based on their own PERSONAL MORAL BELIEFS? Shame really. Oh well.
I'm off to sit in the sun with my unvacced children and enjoy my sons baseball game with a mixture of children who are and aren't vacced. Let me remember to wear the huge scarlet letter across my chest warning everyone that I have a child who could potentially in the future in one of the rare hardly ever heard of cases cause their children to somehow come down with measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough, polio, whatever because I chose not to vacc. JUST IN CASE mind you since my children are perfectly heathly.
Insert the eye rolling overexaggerating drama HERE.
Defensive much?
And polio, diptheria, and whoopig cough have been virtually eradicated Because the vast majority subscribed to the Social Contract and got themselves and/or their children vaccinated.
Your unvaccinated child probably isn't going to get polio or whooping cough Because the vast majority are vaccinated ~ and therefore won't transmit the illness to your unvaccinated child.
So...your child's health is in some ways gained/kept by freeloading on the actions of others that you yourself refuse to take.
RN/NP says: not to mention that you stand behind moral beliefs for your views, yet moral beliefs for supporting the science of vaccination is somehow evil/wrong. Really, just because HIV/Aids has a social connotation (not everyone gets it from 'sleeping around') and chicken pox doesn't in the western world doesn't make it right for someone to deny the benefits their children receive, vaxed or not, from others who vax their children. It is not about what will or will not be picked up by a lawyer- it is about what is fundamentally right or wrong. Really, code law, canon law, popular cultural beliefs- all are flawed if they are your only argumental stance of support. Think about replicatable, reliable, valid scientific data. Were I not concerned about the health of your child, I'd suggest what might happen when your child reaches the age to travel to other countries- what then to prevent them from getting polio, tetanus, diptheria, chicken pox- at an advanced age when it is known to be more virulent within the host? Maybe then your child will sue the parents for undo risk and associated harm from NOT being vaccinated! Just a thought to illustrate how laws created by bureaucrats can't always address what actually exists in the real world.
I'm not sure whether my point was missed... "smallpox is gone", incidentaly both in the US and outside. It does not exist anymore; there may come a time when it comes back, as the wild pox viruses evolve toward it, but for now it is gone. And it was vaccination that eradicated it. I think that's pretty big...
I once worked with a woman that blamed her child's autism on the few vaccinations he received as a baby. I guess nobody told her that all the pot she smoked while pregnant could have a negative effect on her baby.
Maybe you will be lucky. Maybe your children will have perfect immune systems, perfect disease recovery trajectories, etc. despite not vaccinating. Maybe you won't and if you don't, don't think for one moment that the same people you claim to be conspiring will be the first people you turn to and then get angry when things turn bad and then use the same lawyer you used to defend your choice, defend the consequence by "suing" for your decision. I have seen 2 parents in the PICU watch their child dying from complications of whooping cough and chicken pox and you know who they blamed? That's right the medical professionals. they didn't catch it in time, they didn't treat it right etc. etc. etc. I have no problme with you choice so long as you take responsibility for the consequences. Liability in this country is ridiculous. No one should be allowed to sue because things didn't go as planned as a result of failing to follow preventative guidelines.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!THERE ARE MANY KIDS THAT GET VACCINE AND STILL GET THE WHOOPING COUGH.The whole point of the big vaccination push has nothing to do with public health and everything to do with corporate profits.
HI DrShroom "Doctors put drugs of which they know little, into the bodies of which they know less, for diseases of which they know nothing at all."
I'm old enough to have been vaccinated for smallpox as an infant, and there were no vaccines for mumps and chickenpox. Proof of vaccination or titration to prove immunity is required by many states for those who wish to attend college (even part time grad students). Adults who get vaccinated for childhood diseases usually suffer worse side effects than if they had been vaccinated during childhood. In the mean time, Mrs Antivax, kindly keep your germy kids inside sterile bubbles to protect my parents, elderly friends and other immunocompromised people.
I think all of you that think that not vaccinating children is "criminal" are just uneducated. I've done hours of research, talked to many health professionals and come to the conclusion that vaccines simply are not safe enough for me to want to inject my chilren with them. Do you all vaccinate just because that's what you're "supposed" to do? Are you all aware of what they actually contain? They contain formaldahyde, AKA embalming fluid, a known human carcinogen, aluminum and other heavy metals...many also still contain thimerisol, AKA mercury, which was supposed to be removed from all vaccines but the backstock of those vaccines are still being used today. There is research to support that exposure to heavy metals, like those used as preservatives in vaccines, have been linked to neurological disorders, ADHD, and learning disabilities. So your chilren may not get something like chicken pox, but may have other effects such as mentioned above. So instead of calling mothers who choose not to vaccinate uneducated, ignorant or whatever else you say, why do you educate YOURSELVES on what is really being injected into your children's tiny bodies and ask yourself, "how safe are these vaccines REALLY?"
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